Unbossers Podcast

Transforming Bosch Power Tools: A chat with Jochen Goeser about Leadership and Agile

• Nick the Unbosser • Season 3 • Episode 11

Share episode

Ever wondered what happens when a top consultant from Accenture shifts gears to steer Bosch Power Tools through a transformative Agile journey? This episode is your chance to discover the fascinating career of Jochen, who traded in his 12-year tenure at Accenture for a pivotal role in revolutionizing a 20,000-strong division of Bosch. Jochen shares his motivations behind this significant career move and offers a peek into his current sabbatical pursuits. 

What does true leadership look like in the world of Agile transformations? Jochen provides an insightful answer, emphasizing that it all starts with self-belief and personal accountability. Listen as he recounts a pivotal moment from his career leading a multicultural, multinational team, where bringing everyone together physically fostered essential trust and empathy. We dive deep into the common misconceptions surrounding Agile methodologies in large corporations, highlighting the crucial elements for successful implementation.

Agile practices are often shrouded in buzzwords and complex frameworks, but Jochen cuts through the noise to emphasize their core philosophy: adaptability and iterative processes. Trust, transparency, and cross-functionality are the cornerstones of creating human-centered organizations capable of extraordinary results. Hear about the challenges and rewards of challenging the status quo in business practices, and how prioritizing people within organizations leads to transformative outcomes. As we wrap up, we share our excitement for future collaborations and thank our listeners for their engagement in this enlightening discussion.

Speaker 1:

and we're live. Hi, jochen, how you doing very good morning, nick.

Speaker 2:

Hi, good to see you, yeah you're excited to record this podcast totally.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, still not used to this kind of uh prominence, but I'm looking forward to it yeah, um, I'm also very excited to record this conversation and I'm even more excited that we will co-host a roundtable event end of September together, part of our program why? Where teams of five people, of five companies, come together and they will be inspired by yourself and your story, by each other and hopefully also the setting, which is quite unique because we're going to an ancient abbey. Um, so, yeah, super excited for all of this, but the intent of this conversation is to get to know you a little bit better, um, so, yeah, let's start with the beginning, maybe. What is your background and what brought you to Bosch Power?

Speaker 2:

Tools. Yeah, thanks, nick. I'm also looking forward to the Abbey, by the way. So what's my background?

Speaker 2:

So, um, I officially started economics back in university, um, and then there were two options to to start the career either in banking or in insurance. That's what most of my uh alumni together tried to do, and that was not really an option for me. So I started looking into consulting work, um, and regularly, like all other consultants start after graduation. You probably think you do that for two, three years. But then I spent 12 years with accenture because the projects were very exciting, the team setup was usually very good, um, and we had very interesting client interactions. So I move quickly, um, away from the two technical or two digital parts, moving into the everything around people. So what happens in transformation with people? What do we aim for, how they are organized, how they work together, what is hindering them, what is blocking them or what is succeeding them? So that was my, my, my kind of expertise that I built on and and then, after 12 years, I made a personal decision to not go into this pre-covid setting of monday in the in the airplane and thursday back, which was not really fitting to my private situation anymore, which we can elaborate a bit on later, if you want. Um.

Speaker 2:

And then I moved to robot botch, which, by that time, was not my first choice. First choice in terms of proximity was great, but it's a huge company. I mean, we are 400 000 people, um, but we have very different divisions, right, um? And it's really one of those companies, one of those very companies, which have divisions that are not really next to each other.

Speaker 2:

So, while the majority of bosch is concentrated in automotive, there are also some consumer goods divisions, and one of them is power tools, with the greatest power tools you can imagine, of course, um. And they were just at the beginning of what they called by back then an agile transformation. They looked some from some outside perspective and some new people joining, and I was lucky to to get in and since then, um, I'm have been working in, in in there with various roles, um, and, just to also be transparent, at the moment I'm doing a sabbatical this year, um, to also try out things that I always wanted to do. Um. But yeah, we see we have time to talk about that as well, okay, podcast, or when we see each other yeah, I'm still wrapping my head around 400 000 people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah that's, uh, I think 400 000 people is the overall company. So also, to be precise, uh, the power tools division is in the bosch uh atmosphere, uh, one of the smaller rebels divisions. So we are 20 000 people. But, of course, if we compare ourselves to other competitors in the tool industry, I think depending on which, in which region or which tool you're looking into but be on the top three global competition next to other players in the market, yeah, and so when you talk about agile transformation, you talk about the 20 000 people yes, yes um what are power tools?

Speaker 2:

so power tools are are everything that people like you and me need to make their house more nice and comfortable. So for the interior stuff, you probably always want to build up a cupboard or a desk or whatever. So we have fixer screwdrivers put holes in the wall, but also we have all the garden equipment so to allow your more lawyer to cut your trees, to all this stuff. So all the fun part when you want to be a diy. And we have also the tools for all the real professionals or wannabe professionals, so the tools that you can really break down walls and stuff and build up whole houses. So the construction industry and the DIYers, I think, are our main customers or consumers.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so I assume that, since you were a driving force behind the agile transformation at Bosch Power Tools and you're also open to work with us Bosch Power Tools and you're also open to work with us you embrace the principles of an embossed or servant leadership, and a pattern that I see across companies and people that are embracing these principles is that somewhere early on in their personal or professional life, they had an experience that shaped kind of shaped their vision, or at least the seeds of a vision on how and what leadership should be. Is that also the case with you?

Speaker 2:

That's a very good question, nick, and I think I would like to answer it in two ways. So the first one is, as you said, early in the career or in professional life and then, but also connecting it perhaps to my personal upbringing from a private point of view. So from a professional life, I think, when I started with accenture, I think you all start for the very good reasons to be in a nice headquarters of a big consulting firm to travel the world to the big names and the big clients. And while the first part was kind of true, the second part was a bit different.

Speaker 2:

My experience, so my first client was based in the uk and while I love the UK, it was somewhere in the middle of nowhere, up in close to Birmingham. And close to Birmingham means still an hour away. So it was not the five-star hotel and traveling. It was a pain in the ass. There it was. It was a pain in the ass to, yeah, to get comfortable there, but I had a very great uh senior manager at the time, um, who gave me all the trust that is needed to say jochen, I think we hired you because you're a good guy, um, and I'm bringing you in front of the client from day one on um and, while having some shaky knees and some uncomfortable situations at the beginning, I always had to trust in him that he was not telling me what to do, but he put me in front of the client from day one.

Speaker 2:

But he always covered my ass if there were some things going wrong in the first half or first year, which gave me a lot of confidence that I can do things that I thought I'm not capable of.

Speaker 2:

But also to have the trust of people that I can do things that I thought I'm not capable of. But also to have the trust of people that I will do the right things and if really go things go south, then there will be somebody at least there to not cover them up but to stand in front of me. That I'm not by just by myself. So I think that's that's kind of the personal side of it or the professional side of it. And from a personal side I have had the luxury or the lucky lottery win that I have two parents when I was young who behaved similarly, who said Jochen, you're a good guy, you can be strong, so go out into the world and explore it and if there's anything on. We will be there, probably not always being able to help, but at least to be standing next to you and go through the storm together.

Speaker 1:

And so how would you describe your own leadership style today?

Speaker 2:

I think for me it's very important when we talk about leadership that of course in many organizations there is still one person who is a leader. But when I speak about leadership I think we should reflect first on that. Leading starts always believing yourself at the first place, no matter if you have a leadership position or not. So that means I think everybody of us in his private life is somehow a leader of his own life. So when you go on travel, when you buy a car, when you buy a house, there's usually nobody who tells you what to do. So we are totally fine with that, and I think somehow when we move into the corporate world or in the business world we get used to that. I always make the joke that we leave the brain sometimes at the car parking lot, and we'll just find that somebody tells us what to do, and I think that's that's.

Speaker 2:

I think some people say it's outdated. I think it was never the right thing to do it that way, but at least for today's challenges it's definitely outdated. So first message is that I think everybody needs to be a leader in some sort anyway and you need to reflect on what you can do to lead yourself or people around you. And then, when it comes to a leadership style, if you have this official role, then I think the the challenge is that you somehow give guidance and and a base where people can prosper and and and grow, but you that that you don't be the guy who answers all questions at the first place, that you're not the first person who speaks up in a meeting, but that you try to listen in and let the people also make their own decisions, potentially also their own faults, but by that only they can intrinsically motivate themselves and also grow personally yeah, um, was there a moment in your career, a pivotal moment, where you had to lead not only yourself but also others, through uncertainty, uncertainty.

Speaker 2:

I mean, yeah, there are a couple of examples, but I mean there's one from my consulting background where I was leading a team of I think 20, 25 people with a client and they were based on various locations. So we had some people working for us in India, we had some people working for us in Germany and it was also an international European client. And I think the expectation of the client to hire this multinational team with people co-located around the world was mainly incentivized by a good pricing deal that they had right and not also thinking about all the challenges that come with having a multi-site national team working for you. And I think there it was very challenging to to especially bring the expectations of the european customers working together with indians, germans and some english people together to a level where not the team was dispersing or kind of. So that was a very interesting constellation for a couple of weeks or months and what did you?

Speaker 1:

what was the learning, uh, from that?

Speaker 2:

experience. The learning was that, uh and by that I mean the learning was, we've tried out a thing which was then helping a lot to bring some of the key people from india for for two months into europe, and that, I think, had a profound impact on the on the people from india, but also from the people from the client, because we gave the people a face to each other, so we had this human, human interaction which was increasing the empathy on both sides, um, but we also had just the personal connection within our team and from that on actually, uh, yes, not everybody was able to see each other in person, but then there were enough multipliers to make this thing work yeah, this reminds me of the, the fact that everybody is always talking about trust and how important it is, but the precondition to create trust is connection.

Speaker 1:

Trust is connection and, um, in my opinion, uh preferably human to human, physical uh contact connection to build to start off, and then you can move to a digital context and and continue building the trust there. So, yeah, I resonate with the with, with the learning. Let let's move to Agile, because you were the driving force and led and co-led one of the few large-scale, successful Agile transformations in Europe. There were a lot of Agile transformations in the last decade, I would say, but very few succeeded. What do you think are the biggest misconceptions about practicing agile in large corporations?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that's a question that really I'm thinking a lot about as well, always since I'm working in those environments. And the question is also I mean, we started the journey 2015-2016, so by that time, not many people tried it out, not many organizations did it on a broader scale, next to probably IT or it delivery, where the original or the origin of agile is in that context, right, um, and, and I'm pretty sure, with what we wanted to do, we wouldn't call it agile transformation if we would start something like today. Um, not because agile per se is the wrong name, but I think whenever there's a new, especially in the business world, if there's a new buzzword out, a lot of people jump on it, some with the good intentions, some with the not so good intentions. Um, there are people who use those buzzwords to create a lot of complicated or proprietary frameworks, to say, if you want to be agile, you need to do step a to z and you need to use our tools, our software, our framework to make it successful.

Speaker 2:

And for me, the word agile should not be seen only in a business context, but it means to be very adaptive and iterative and not simply stuck to a plan that you have that you have thought about thoroughly, probably six or twelve months beforehand, and then trying to push it through without considering that reality might have changed in the meantime between you doing a plan and you want to execute the plan.

Speaker 2:

Um, and for that reason I'm very keen on making sure that if we talk about actually go back to the basics and back to the basic means, in some sort the HR manifesto with some values. For example, people interactions are more important than process documentation or high values on transparency and autonomy and cross-functionality and not blaming each other for being the expert in this and the others have not developed what we thought about beforehand. So cross-functionality, decentralized decisions and people over processes I think this is somehow for me more essential and if you look into that, then the word agile is not really the important one, but it's kind of the thinking about how can we make small and big organizations not only human-centered but also capable of extraordinary business results and where people can flourish. So I think that's kind of my not a new definition of agile, but a different way of looking at it.

Speaker 1:

I link that to similar learnings that I had.

Speaker 1:

If it's possible not to give the baby a name, don't give the baby a name, whatever you give it, because from the moment that you make it a project with a name, it becomes the elephant that people can start shooting their frustrations at, even and especially when those frustrations are totally not correlated with the change that you want to implement.

Speaker 1:

And so, going back to the roots of the philosophy, I think is is a very good advice, and I would. I would add that the primary question that every participant and the company as a whole need to answer in all honesty is are we willing to trust people knowing that this trust will be betrayed? So, if, or do you prefer to live and work from a mindset that people cannot be trusted and and and therefore need to be controlled, and if, and there's no good or bad answer in my opinion, I mean, it's basically how you're formed, it's how you're brought up, what you experienced in your life that determines the answer. But I do think that if the answer is, I'm not able to live and work as if I trust everyone, knowing that my trust will be betrayed. If that's not the case, I think it's very difficult to successfully implement HR. What do you think?

Speaker 2:

no, I can totally resonate with that and just to add on that, just because I mean just to add on that and just because I mean just to add on that and build on that, I think we're still talking about businesses, right, and I think one of the questions that might also give some additional insights is, given the fact in what kind of turbulent times we are, how fast the technology is pacing, how quickly people can move also jobs or talent shortages or whatever Perhaps the additional question that people need to ask is are there people in the organization who are capable to answer all the questions that need to be answered to have an advantage if you don't trust people?

Speaker 2:

So it's a very long sentence, but at the end of the day, if you think you know much more than everybody else, then perhaps the trusting people is not the first thing you need to do. But if you have the feeling that there are too many questions that you don't have an answer to, I think there's a high chance that if you open up trust to other people, you might actually come faster forward or move in a better direction.

Speaker 1:

Totally, totally agree. Um an additional question on Agile. Question on Agile how did you see the leadership style evolve throughout the years that you were implementing the Agile principles in the organization?

Speaker 2:

I think the challenge part is and I also don't want to say we are in paradise or that we have found the golden golden thing is that we are trying to change an existing organization right. So it's not like we started a new, new, new company to say, these are our ground rules and many of the people who are in leading positions actually climbed the ladder in in a different way of behaving but, more importantly, about being incentivized on how to behave right. So we talk about trust, and trust in the good things about people. Then we also need to make sure that we have the same emotions towards the current leaders. So are these, by definition, bad people or good people? Or do we say there are potentials on both sides good people and people in the leadership team, but they might be incentivized in the wrong ways.

Speaker 2:

Looking into the past, so I think the leadership style evolved a lot because we gave the opportunity to also shine and make career when you don't have a leadership position, because I think that's an important part of the equation that many people are being forced into leadership position where they have no interest to lead people.

Speaker 2:

The second thing is that we offered additional roles, where agile, I think, is a good case where you have, like, coaches or product owners or other people that actually take on responsibility, so you can really delegate tasks that usually in traditional organizations go all with one person you can delegate. So I think that's that's a good thing, then. But then you also have, um shiny examples of people adopting this and say, wow, great, now I can really lift up to what I actually want to be as a person. And you have also people that find it very challenging to change their leadership style. And then you have people who say this is definitely not for me, and I'm also leading this division, or and then that's also fine, right? So you're living in a world where you have options and choices. If you don't want to, yeah, if this is not your, not your belonging anymore yeah, and that's uh, that's also a pattern that I see, uh, across different transformations.

Speaker 1:

that is, at at a certain point and I typically is between one and three years, depending how big the company is Um, a line has to be drawn in the sand. You know it's, it's, it's either you're in or you're out. And the companies that, for whatever reason, don't do that, they often get into this half-pregnant state where certain parts of the organization are super agile Often it's IT that's working, but then their business counterparts are still working the old fashioned way. And, yeah, in my opinion, then it's better to draw the line and say, no, we just everybody works the old fashioned way, or everybody works agile, but not the thing in the confusing thing in between.

Speaker 1:

Anyway, I think I want to wrap up the Agile stuff here and leave it with a cliffhanger. For the listeners, the participants of our round table end of month they will dive deep into your experiences and for other listeners not part of program wide this year, they can always contact us if they, if they want learn more. So let's wrap up the agile stuff here and maybe close it with a personal question did you have a mentor in your career, someone who really there's?

Speaker 2:

not this one person. So because I think, well, you might have faced different challenges in your career and therefore I think I made it quite. I was lucky enough to find a number of people who can help me in certain situations or who mentor me, but I'm also not the person also for me that I think I am the solution or the help for every problem that somebody has. So I had my own mentor, but it's built out of a couple of people and have um, yeah, and I was happy to be with for a certain time, or still with me, um, from my private and professional life a kind of board board of mentorship yeah, kind of that.

Speaker 2:

So I have a list of people. It's also changing from time to time, right? So, um, which is also a good and good thing, I think, because, yeah, career paths changes, personal situation changes, so yeah, but I think it's very good to have those kind of people around you and, you know, you can go to them and talk to them for various kind of topics.

Speaker 1:

And is there a message that you want to share with both the participants that you will meet end of September and all other listeners listening to this episode?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I think, um, if you, if you want to go on a journey to challenge the status quo in how we do business, how do we work together and having the people at the first priority, then for those who are in, they know, but for those who want to start, it is a roller coaster. So it's not like walk into the hoped land and everything will be great. But what is really great and fascinating is, if you do that, that you're really up for some very interesting journey and it will definitely make your personal and professional life change in a profound way. So I don't regret anything, but it's not an easy walk in the park, I would say.

Speaker 1:

It's definitely an adventure, a roller coaster, you're absolutely right, and I think many listeners will recognize themselves and their journeys in organization, in their organizations. In those words, Jochen, super. Thanks for this quick chat and yeah really looking forward to our collaboration end of September. Have a great day and thank you for all the listeners for listening in. See you next time.

Speaker 2:

Thanks a lot, Nick. Bye-bye.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Nick the Unbosser

Host